……………………..Limits are for governments.

Andrea Rossi’s E-cat: Potential to Provide 2 Liters of Clean Drinking Water to 83 Persons in One Day

 

Kenyan boy drinking a cup of cold water. Image via eleosproject.wordpress.com

Dear Andrea Rossi,

Consider the problem of potable (drinkable) water. Assume water source is nearby the village but is contaminated with disease-borne agents. Boiling the water would kill the agents.

Assume a 5kW eCat running continuously with an input water temperature of 20 degC. Bringing the water to boiling: Specific Heat of Water: 4.18 J/ (gm * degC) Delta temperature = 80 degC Heat of Vaporization for Water: 2257 kJ /kg Raise 1 kg of water from 20 degC to 100 degC: = 4.18 J / (gm * degC) * 1000 gm/kg * 80 degC = 334 kJ Boil 1 kg of water: = 2257 kJ Total Energy required: = 2591 kJ / kg Amount of Water turned into steam in one hour: = 5 kW * 3600 sec /(2581 kJ / kg) = 18 MJ / (2581 kJ / kg) = 6.95 kg / hour Amount of Water per day = 166 kg = 166 liters / day Required drinkable water per person per day = 2 liters per day. Number of people one 5kW eCat could support = 83 persons Steam could be used to provide electricity (5kW @ 30% = 1.5kW electricity) Waste heat used for structure heating, etc.            ~Steven N. Karels

 

Dear Steven N. Karels:   Yes, is important what you say. This is an issue in which we can give an important contribution.

Warm Regards, A.R.

Andrea Rossi

 

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12 responses

  1. Len R.

    It doesn’t work. Rossi is a fraud.

    May 12, 2012 at 6:56 pm

  2. Hello “Len R.”

    The 1 MW plant has already been produced and sold, and is available to buyers worldwide.

    Buyers of the E-cat decide for themselves whether to risk their own capital on this new energy source. The producers, researchers, and developers also risk their own capital to manufacture the E-cat. This is an individual decision. You may choose not to invest in this technological break-through. Therefore, I don’t think “fraud” is the word you are looking for.

    Rather, what is fraudulent is using government coercion to force individuals to purchase energy from expensive, unreliable, intermittent sources such as worthless wind turbines and solar. For example, the UK has spent over 200 billion pounds on wind turbines, with the result that it only drives up electricity rates for everyone – and they supply less than 1% of the nation’s energy. Energy mandates are the real fraud.

    May 29, 2012 at 6:26 am

  3. Hi Zeke! Christos Stremmenos has just posted a comment, letter to Rossi, on Ross’s blog about the connection and history with Deflaklion GT;
    I have reproduced it as a comment on my blog;

    http://pgtruspace.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/defkalion-letter/#comment-532

    The letter appears to me an accurate account of the events and connections. Still not sure who funded Deflaklion. pg

    July 4, 2012 at 8:47 pm

    • Thanks for the link, pg. Enjoyed dropping by. It also gives a picture of all the red and green tape that Andrea Rossi faces in bringing the E-cat onto the market for people who want to buy it.

      July 6, 2012 at 12:01 pm

  4. I am archiving this conversation I had on WUWT for more detail on the web discussion on the subject of Andrea Rossi and the E-cat. It also touches on the politicization of the patent process, and of all science.

    rogerknights says:
    July 4, 2012 at 11:55 am

    Say, what’s Rossi up to lately? Any newsworthy news?

    kadaka (KD Knoebel) says:
    July 4, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    rogerknights said on July 4, 2012 at 11:55 am: Say, what’s Rossi up to lately? Any newsworthy news?

    Pick one, either still a scam or Rossi is still extremely self-deluded.
    http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/02/16/leonardo-corporation-buys-e-cat-rights-from-rossis-wife/
    http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/02/17/rossi-e-cat-never-delivered-to-customer-needs-gaskets/

    http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/02/18/rossi-blames-e-cat-delivery-discrepancy-on-translation-error/
    Yesterday New Energy Times reported that Andrea Rossi never shipped his one-megawatt “Energy Catalyzer” to his unidentified customer because of a gasket problem.

    But today we learned from readers that Rossi had, in fact, told his fans that he had shipped the 1 MW E-Cat. According Rossi, the discrepancy is the result of a “translation error.”

    A week after Rossi’s video showed that the big blue box was still in the back of the Rossi brother’s tire shop, E-Cat fans were concerned.

    Rossi explained that a translation problem made him think that the big blue box had already been delivered to the customer.
    http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/02/18/national-instruments-denies-relationship-with-rossi/
    And that’s just a string in chronological order.
    Still on the New Energy Times home page (slow site) is this story posted March 29:
    http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/03/29/rossis-steam-trick-lewan-knew/
    Mats Lewan, the technology journalist with Ny Teknik who was by far the biggest promoter of Andrea Rossi and his Energy Catalyzer, knew that the water Rossi fed into the E-Cat didn’t produce the extraordinary amount of steam it should have if Rossi’s claim was valid. Lewan also had a good idea about where the rest of the water went. He reported neither of these concerns to his readers.

    According to Rossi’s claim, the E-Cat should have produced 11,200 liters of steam per hour. Steam should have blasted out through the black hose at 60 to 100 miles per hour. It didn’t even come close. Lewan has a master’s degree in engineering physics; he should have known how much steam to expect.

    Article continues here

    And from there I found an important link:
    Andrea Rossi Energy Catalyzer Investigation Index
    Investigation and Compilation by Steven B. Krivit (2011-2012)

    The LENR movement, such as it is, is abandoning Rossi in favor of “promising” other work. I guess there are still some true believers around who have yet to accept the truth (RockyRoad, you still here?).

    Offhand I think some of the disillusioned are among those currently pushing the liquid thorium fluoride reactors as a “conventional” energy source having the “cheap energy”, fail-safe, and potential boxcar-sized portability attributes they were expecting from Rossi’s e-Catastrophe.

    Zeke says:
    July 4, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    Rossi has anounced a stable 600C reaction which is now being tested in a one month trial by over a dozen reactors.

    The improved output from his previous design, which operated at 200C, was the result of feedback from a customer who purchased the 1MW plant.

    kadaka (KD Knoebel) says:
    July 5, 2012 at 1:58 am

    @ Zeke on July 4, 2012 at 7:38 pm:

    See, that’s what I mean. Hope, belief, faith in the wizard who does his magic hiding behind a curtain.

    Google finds very few mentions for “rossi 600°C”. On the first page of results, only the first 9 were valid. There is repeating and reposting and it’s based off something at his self-published “Journal of Nuclear Physics” web site. Some are at “e-catworld-dot-com”, a domain with hidden registration, yet the “About” page says it’s owned and edited by Frank Acland, a “professional educator”.

    June 4, 2012
    Rossi: 600C E-Cat Test Continues for Over 30 Days
    (one unit)

    June 24, 2012
    Rossi: Approx 20 E-Cat Reactors Running Above 600C

    This was in “Recent Posts”:
    July 3, 2012
    Rossi: High Temperature Report Will be Validated by Customer
    Said report to be published on Rossi’s site, of course. Wonder if this customer will also be anonymous.

    Such posts get linked to at ecatnow.com, owned by “Craig Brown” who has 397 other domains. Smells like an aggregator site, probably automated.

    For unabashed gushing Rossi-worshiping, nothing beats pesn-dot-com (Pure Energy Systems Network). Like this June 15 2012 piece:
    600 Celsius – The Accelerating Evolution of Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat

    By the specs presented, the new version has a smaller core, amazing as previous units rated at 2.5 kW output were only 50 cubic centimeters, size of a D cell, and these are rated at 10kW. While going from 50 grams of the “specially processed and enriched (in isotopes Ni-62 and Ni-64) nickel powder” down to 1.5 grams. With which the new version is supposed to run for six months, generating 600°C steam.

    Oh, and they also have the magic pellet that absorbs and releases hydrogen making all this possible. This piece has the closest to a workable description of the e-Cat I’ve read, in the sense that a description of 4-cycle internal combustion tells me how a fuel-injected Ferrari engine works.

    But to top it all is this June 30 (last updated July 2) article, The New Solid State E-Cat . NO COOLANT NEEDED, the new units being tested are achieving temperatures above 600°C without any water inputed, they just make heat, with total thermal stability and precise control. No moving parts, just a unit you feed in hydrogen to make those 10kW of heat that can be used for 600°C steam.

    AND, the apparent goal is stable production of 1000°C steam!

    Which leads to this bit showing the science literacy of the author, bold added:

    The fact is that 600C temperatures would be enough to produce high temperature steam that could be used in cutting edge turbines, but 1,000C temperatures would open up even more possibilities. It makes the use of a Stirling Engine or thermal photovoltaic panel that much easier!

    BTW, I find the following from the bottom of the PESN pages to be very encouraging:

    ADVISORY: With any technology, you take a high risk to invest significant time or money unless (1) independent testing has thoroughly corroborated the technology, (2) the group involved has intellectual rights to the technology, and (3) the group has the ability to make a success of the endeavor.

    This is a news site with a disclaimer suitable for a dispenser of financial investment advice?

    Yup, just pump in the hydrogen, heat’s produced, the magic happens.

    10 to 1 it’s just a hydrogen fuel cell, that will give off invisible dry steam. Use it to heat a boiler vessel, and who’s going to notice some extra condensation in the room? That’s assuming that these units aren’t hooked up to an electricity supply that could possibly supply all the energy that was “produced” as with the “shipping container” test.

    Same question still remains. This is supposed to be a nuclear device, using nuclear fusion to combine nickel and hydrogen into copper. Where are the authorities? Yes, they claim it releases no radiation. Which the relevant authorities would still like to confirm. Rossi is now in the US. We’re post-9/11, so the NRC, EPA, and Homeland Security should all be looking into his operation, and that’s just on the federal level. Before he could ever sell them here, he’d have over a decade’s worth of safety studies to conduct. And make them in the US but sell abroad? Twist it all you want, it’s still a nuclear device, specifically a nuclear reactor, and there are strong controls in place for that with US government permissions to obtain.

    The only logical answer remains the same: The authorities know there is absolutely nothing nuclear going on. It’s a heating device, making the heat by hydrogen and/or electricity. Nothing more, nothing less. It needs about as much regulation as a kitchen stove, especially now that the new version doesn’t make the steam itself thus ducks the pressure vessel testing and licensing requirements. It needs less regulation than a home boiler furnace.

    And the EPA might still want an emissions study.

    Zeke says:
    July 5, 2012 at 10:03 am

    The 1MW plant has been sold to a military concern. Andrea Rossi is now in the process of obtaining UL permits and setting up a fully mechanized plant for the production of the ecat. The capital risked in research, development, production, and purchasing this new source of energy is an individual judgment and entirely voluntary. Don’t buy one if you don’t want to. Although the use of loaded language, name calling, and hostility towards this free market scientific innovation in the above posts can’t have gone unnoticed, I will still point out that the patent office is highly politicised, as all science is now.

    But the subject here is “strange sciency spam,” remember? So may I suggest a more on-topic subject would be so-called Renewable Energy, which the government much prefers, and which require[s] huge subsidies, economic and political coercion, and involuntary participation by the citizens to finance the mandates to use these sources.

    People ought to recognize “strange sciency spam” when they see it, because Renewable Energy has extremely low capacity factors, [is an] intermittent [energy] supply, has no actual storage system in place when the sunsine and seabreezes don’t come, and an enormous amount of land is required for the panels and windfleets.

    So for “strange sciency spam” may I suggest “An example is the 2008 plan promoted by former vice president Al Gore, which called for replacing all fossil-fueled generation in the United States in just a decade. Another is Google’s plan, announced in 2008 and abandoned in 2011, which envisaged cutting out coal generation by 2030. Trumping them all was a 2009 article in Scientific American by Mark Jacobson, a professor of civil engineering at Stanford University, and Mark Delucchi, a researcher in transportation studies at the University of California, Davis. They proposed converting the energy economy of the entire world to renewable sources by 2030.” There’s plenty of extrmely bad, fraudulent science out there to worry about; as you can see the strange sciency spam is coming from our own government – who also happens to have control over the patent process.

    Meanwhile, all Andrea Rossi requests is a mere patent and UL paperwork to sell his valid product to customers who wish to risk their own capital on innovation.

    tadchem says:
    July 5, 2012 at 11:17 am
    Where are all the gratuitous calories?

    kadaka (KD Knoebel) says:
    July 5, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    From Zeke on July 5, 2012 at 10:03 am: “Meanwhile, all Andrea Rossi requests is a mere patent and UL paperwork to sell his valid product to customers who wish to risk their own capital on innovation.”

    If the hydrogen gas was used in any meaningful way then it needs certification, CSA is commonly used. That includes using gas as a working fluid as with refrigeration. Since hydrogen burns and is potentially explosive, it can’t duck that. Intertek is also used, being one of the Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories that check compliance to applicable standards.

    Underwriters Laboratories primarily deals with electrical and fire safety.

    If the NRC is not involved, then the e-Catastrophe cannot possibly be nuclear.

    Further, the specs mention a radio frequency generator. There are control electronics. Thus the FCC needs to check it for possible radio interference. They check everything using higher frequencies, including electronic dimmer switches and my little USB modem dongle. Heck, even my digital camera was FCC certified.

    You don’t need FCC certification for switches and rheostats.

    What should all that tell you about this innovative device?

    If all they need is patents and UL approval, then it’s a glorified electric hotplate.

    Zeke says:
    July 5, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    True, the ecat uses a radio frequency and mini hydrogen tanks. Of the less than 2 grams of hydrogen, the ecat consumes a very small amount.

    Should the FCC have a problem with radio frequencies?
    I don’t think there will be a problem with that since Compact Flourescent Lights, now mandated by Congress, are copious sources of radio frequencies and disrupt many things from AM radios to medical devices and equipment. That, along with operating on a volatilized form of Mercury in amounts that exceed state safe-levels by as much as a factor of 100.

    kadaka (KD Knoebel) says:
    July 5, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    @ Zeke on July 5, 2012 at 2:18 pm:

    You’re still ducking that it can’t possibly be nuclear.

    Should the FCC have a problem with radio frequencies?

    They often do, that’s what they check for.

    Will the FCC have a problem with the e-Cat? After Rossi submits a working unit to an independent certified testing laboratory, maybe we’ll find out.

    Zeke says:
    July 6, 2012 at 11:11 am

    Rossi already has a European patent. He is now finishing all the other permits in order to begin production. Those who have read the paper, examined the demonstrations, done the research, and are convinced of the value, usefulness, and validity of his discovery are preordering home units. Those who have looked at the same evidence and are not convinced, are not required to participate in any way.

    He will never get a US patent because the US Patent office does not issue patents for stable nuclear fusion process at low temperatures. However, and this is what I was trying to emphasize, w/apologies for grammar mistakes, the US government simultaneously insists that the energy sector can be forced onto renewables without back up battery technology and despite the unreliability of the supply of wind and sun as a resource.

    What kind of engineer would build a building with intermittent power and no back up technology? No engineer would ever do a thing like that. He would be censured and removed from practice, or have his license suspended. And this is the broader context of the refusal to give Rossi a US patent. It is desperately politicized, as we also spend billions upon physics experiments and models which say these reactions cannot occur.

    July 6, 2012 at 12:03 pm

  5. @Zeke; interesting exchange. Those that must TROLL, will, no matter what. The rest of us must take a wait and see. I have examined the information and science and believe this device is possible. Whether Mr.Rossi makes it a success, or not, at this time is unknown as of yet. I fear the requirements for public sale may be his undoing. I think his design, as I understand it, needs to be redone for better control.

    You are correct, Wind ,Solar, Plasma Fusion for industrial power are all just a con – game that IS destroying the western world.

    The Rossi power amplifier is not a nuclear reactor. It needs power input to passivate radioactive nickle with hydrogen. There is no radioactive materials produced! At 600C this is a serous red hot fuel element almost yellow hot. I would say a slug of sintered “heavy” nickle powder that has a pure hydrogen charge in the metal pores within a stainless steel can. This fuel element is excited with a RF generator as if it was an antenna element. Some “doping” of the nickle powder is needed to make the conversion easier. pg

    July 22, 2012 at 10:25 pm

  6. Thanks PG. Have been busy. But I do think this is cold fusion, and an elegant, simple device as well. He has said that the radio frequency is something that “takes what would be a disadvantage, and turns it to our advantage.” It is not the source of the reaction; it just removes disruption, according to his remark.

    July 27, 2012 at 5:00 pm

  7. Andrea Rossi
    March 24th, 2013 at 10:53 PM

    DEAR GEORGEHANTS:
    YOUR COMMENT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE OPENS THE GATE FOR THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION:
    THE TESTS OF THE THIRD INDIPENDENT PARTY HAVE BEEN COMPLETED YESTERDAY.
    I DID NOT ATTEND, THEREFORE I DO NOT KNOW EXACTLY THE RESULTS, THAT WILL SURELY BE PUBLISHED BY THE EXAMINATORS, PROBABLY AROUND THE HALF OF APRIL. I MET THE 11 PROFESSORS AND EXPERTS THAT MADE THE TESTS AND THEY WERE VERY POSITIVE. ONE OF THEM TOLD ME ” WE GOT EVIDENCE THAT THE ‘ EFFECT’ IS REAL BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT”. I COULD NOT GET MORE INFORMATION, BECAUSE THEY NOW HAVE TO ELABORATE THE DATA TO PREPARE THE PUBLICATION. ALL THE PROFESSORS SAID THE TEST IS GONE WELL, VERY WELL. THE LAST TEST ENDED AFTER 120 HOURS OF UNINTERRUPTED OPERATION OF THE REACTORS ( THE NEW GENERATION OF HOT CATS IS MADE BY A TWO STAGE SYSTEM, MADE WITH AN ACTIVATOR WITH RESISTANCES COUPLED WITH A KIND OF CHARGE, WHICH ACTIVATES THE E-CAT WITH A DIFFERENT CHARGE). THE EFFECT IS STUNNING, WE SAW IN OUR PRIVATE TESTS, AND HAS BEEN REPLICATED BY THE THIRD INDIPENDENT PARTY.
    NOW WE PASS TO THE INDUSTRIAL ENGAGEMENTS: WE HAVE TO DELIVER OUR PLANTS BY THE END OF APRIL.
    WARM REGARDS,
    ANDREA ROSSI
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Zeke; latest news from Rossi on independent test of Ecats. Includes new 2 part device that shows real promise. 8-) maybe he will get it right after all. pg

    March 25, 2013 at 11:03 pm

    • It appears this is the 3rd party test for the hot cat and the e cat. 120 hours of continuous operation is excellent, and so is getting a fair review and replication. Well a little happiness and discovery in science is so nice for a change. (: Thanks PG.

      March 26, 2013 at 11:10 am

  8. Steven N. Karels
    April 2nd, 2013 at 9:23 PM

    Dear Andrea Rossi,

    When you operate an eCat for extended periods, do you observe a measureable decrease in mass appropriate with the total energy output of the device?
    Andrea Rossi
    April 3rd, 2013 at 6:24 AM

    Dear Steven N. Karels:
    You are right, but please do not forget that
    1- there are error margins of the scales
    2- there are many macroscopic factors that can change the weight: several mg are a so small amount, that errors are very probable.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    April 3, 2013 at 2:00 pm

  9. Steven N. Karels
    April 3rd, 2013 at 6:15 AM

    Dear Andrea Rossi,

    If you have a single 10kW eCat reactor running for 1 year (8,760 hours), you will have output 87,600 kWh of energy. Assuming an average COP of 6 means 5/6 of the energy will have come from the internal reaction or 73,000 kWh. If one gram of mass equals 23 x 10^6 kWh, then you should observe a mass change of about 3.1 milligrams.

    I understand that some immediate loss of mass of an eCat due to initial heating is normal. But precisely weighing an eCat over a year long operation should result in measuring the mass loss as a linear (in time) process. In other words, the first short operating period of a new eCat results in mass loss due to water vaporization, outgassing, etc, but after awhile, the loss rate should be linear with power. Milligrams of mass loss may be detectable and measureable. Perhaps another validation to eCat operation?
    Andrea Rossi
    April 3rd, 2013 at 10:39 AM

    Dear Steven N. Karels:
    Even if you stay 1 year the delta mass is so small that other factors, as well as the margin of error, would make the results very shaky.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    April 3, 2013 at 2:00 pm

  10. Steven N. Karels
    April 3rd, 2013 at 10:15 AM

    Dear Andrea Rossi,

    You are correct. Measuring a change of roughly one part in a million (assuming the eCat mass is around a kilogram) would be difficult. You might be able to do it using an un-fueled eCat kept in a environmentally sealed bag and do a differential measurement between the active eCat and the unfueled eCat over time. An interesting experiment but I suspect you have other things to do. I would assume the third-party testers will have made before and after mass measurements but their operating time would be insufficient to observe a significant mass difference.
    Andrea Rossi
    April 3rd, 2013 at 12:44 PM

    Dear Steven N.Karels,
    To compare 2 E-Cats to find a difference of few mg is impossible, because the variation of weight between the E-Cats is of tens of grams, let alone milligrams…and the margin of error of the scales are such that a difference of weight of few mg is impossible to detect anyway, also considering many other factors ( humidity, powder, fulfilling of microcaves of the steel surface, etc) that make impossible to detect if the delta M is really due to a conversion of the charge.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    April 3, 2013 at 2:00 pm

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